sn42.9:2 Now at that time Nāḷandā was undergoing famine and scarcity, with crops blighted and turned to straw. At that time the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan was residing at Nāḷandā together with a large assembly of Jain ascetics. Then Asibandhaka’s son the chief, who was a disciple of the Jains, went up to the Jain Ñātika, bowed, and sat down to one side. The Jain Ñātika said to him: “Come, chief, refute the ascetic Gotama’s doctrine. Then you will get a good reputation: ‘Asibandhaka’s son the chief refuted the doctrine of the ascetic Gotama, so mighty and powerful!’”

sn42.9:3 “But sir, how am I to do this?” “Here, brahmin, go to the ascetic Gotama and say to him: ‘Sir, don’t you in many ways praise kindness, protection, and sympathy for families?’ When he’s asked this, if he answers: ‘Indeed I do, chief,’ say this to him: ‘So what then are you doing, wandering together with this large Saṅgha of mendicants during a time of famine and scarcity, with crops blighted and turned to straw? The Buddha is practicing to annihilate, collapse, and ruin families!’ When you put this dilemma to him, the Buddha won’t be able to either spit it out or swallow it down.” “Yes, sir,” replied Asibandhaka’s son. He rose from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled the Jain Ñātika, keeping him on his right. Then he went to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:

sn42.9:4 “Sir, don’t you in many ways praise kindness, protection, and sympathy for families?” “Indeed I do, chief.” “So what then are you doing, wandering together with this large Saṅgha of mendicants during a time of famine and scarcity, with crops blighted and turned to straw? The Buddha is practicing to annihilate, collapse, and ruin families!” “Well, chief, I’m not aware of any family that’s been ruined merely by offering some cooked almsfood. Rather, rich, affluent, and wealthy families—with lots of gold and silver, lots of property and assets, and lots of money and grain—all acquired their wealth because of giving, truth, and restraint. Chief, there are eight causes and reasons for the ruin of families. Their ruin stems from rulers, bandits, fire, or flood. Or they lose their savings. Or their business fails due to not applying themselves to work. Or a wastrel is born into the family who squanders and fritters away their wealth. And impermanence is the eighth. These are the eight causes and reasons for the ruin of families. Given that these eight reasons are found, suppose someone says this: ‘The Buddha is practicing to annihilate, collapse, and ruin families!’ Unless they give up that speech and that thought, and let go of that view, they will be placed in hell as if delivered there.”

sn42.9:5 When he said this, Asibandhaka’s son the chief said to the Buddha, “Excellent, sir! Excellent! … From this day forth, may the Buddha remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

1. Chiefs

With Maṇicūḷaka

sn42.10:1 At one time the Buddha was staying near Rājagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels’ feeding ground. Now at that time while the king’s retinue was sitting together in the royal compound this discussion came up among them, “Gold and currency are proper for ascetics who follow the Sakyan. They accept and receive gold and currency.”

sn42.10:2 Now at that time the chief Maṇicūḷaka was sitting in that assembly. He said to that retinue, “Good masters, don’t say that. Gold and currency are not proper for ascetics who follow the Sakyan. They neither accept nor receive gold and currency. They have set aside gems and gold, and quit using gold and currency.” He was able to persuade that assembly. Then Maṇicūḷaka went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and told him what had happened. He then said, “Answering this way, I trust that I repeat what the Buddha has said, and don’t misrepresent him with an untruth. I trust my explanation is in line with the teaching, and that there are no legitimate grounds for rebuttal or criticism.”

sn42.10:3 “Indeed, in answering this way you repeat what I’ve said, and don’t misrepresent me with an untruth. Your explanation is in line with the teaching, and there are no legitimate grounds for rebuttal or criticism. Gold and currency are not proper for ascetics who follow the Sakyan. They neither accept nor receive gold and currency. They have set aside gems and gold, and quit using gold and currency. If gold and currency were proper for them, then the five kinds of sensual stimulation would also be proper. And if the five kinds of sensual stimulation are proper for them, you should categorically regard them as not having the qualities of an ascetic or a follower of the Sakyan. Rather, chief, I say this: Straw may be looked for by one needing straw; wood may be looked for by one needing wood; a cart may be looked for by one needing a cart; a workman may be looked for by one needing a workman. But in any case, there is no way they can accept or look for gold and currency, I say.”

1. Chiefs

With Bhadraka

sn42.11:1 At one time the Buddha was staying in the land of the Mallas, near the Mallian town named Uruvelakappa. Then Bhadraka the village chief went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him: “Please, sir, let the Blessed One teach me the origin and disappearance of suffering.” “Chief, if I were to teach you about the origin and disappearance of suffering in connection with the past, saying ‘this is how it was in the past,’ you might have doubts or uncertainties about that. If I were to teach you about the origin and disappearance of suffering in connection with the future, saying ‘this is how it will be in the future,’ you might have doubts or uncertainties about that. Rather, chief, I will teach you about the origin and disappearance of suffering as I am sitting right here and you are sitting right there. Listen and apply your mind well, I will speak.” “Yes, sir,” Bhadraka replied. The Buddha said this:

sn42.11:2 “What do you think, chief? Are there any people here in Uruvelakappa who, if they were executed, imprisoned, fined, or condemned, it would cause you sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress?” “There are, sir.” “But are there any people here in Uruvelakappa who, if they were executed, imprisoned, fined, or condemned, it would not cause you sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress?” “There are, sir.” “What’s the cause, chief, what’s the reason why, if this was to happen to some people it could cause you sorrow, while if it happens to others it does not?” “The people regarding whom this would give rise to sorrow are those I have desire and passion. The people regarding whom this would not give rise to sorrow are those I don’t have desire and passion.” “With this present phenomenon that you have seen, understood, immediately attained, and fathomed, you can apply the same method to the past and future: ‘All the suffering that arose in the past was rooted and sourced in desire. For desire is the root of suffering. All the suffering that will arise in the future will be rooted and sourced in desire. For desire is the root of suffering.’” “It’s incredible, sir, it’s amazing! How well said this was by the Buddha! ‘All the suffering that arises is rooted and sourced in desire. For desire is the root of suffering.’ I have a boy called Ciravāsi, who resides in a house away from here. I rise early and dispatch someone, saying: ‘Go, lad, and check on my boy Ciravāsi.’ Until they get back I worry: ‘I hope nothing’s wrong with Ciravāsi!’”

sn42.11:3 “What do you think, chief? If Ciravāsi was executed, imprisoned, fined, or condemned, would it cause you sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress?” “How could it not, sir?” “This too is a way to understand: ‘All the suffering that arises is rooted and sourced in desire. For desire is the root of suffering.’

sn42.11:4 What do you think, chief? Before you’d seen or heard of Ciravāsi’s mother, did you have any desire or passion or fondness for her?” “No, sir.” “Then was it because you saw or heard of her that you had desire or passion or fondness for her?” “Yes, sir.”

sn42.11:5 “What do you think, chief? If Ciravāsi’s mother was executed, imprisoned, fined, or condemned, would it cause you sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress?” “How could it not, sir?” “This too is a way to understand: ‘All the suffering that arises is rooted and sourced in desire. For desire is the root of suffering.’”

1. Chiefs

With Rāsiya

sn42.12:1 Then Rāsiya the chief went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him: “Sir, I have heard this: ‘The ascetic Gotama criticizes all forms of mortification. He categorically condemns and denounces those fervent mortifiers who live rough.’ I trust those who say this repeat what the Buddha has said, and do not misrepresent him with an untruth? Is their explanation in line with the teaching? Are there any legitimate grounds for rebuttal and criticism?” “Chief, those who say this do not repeat what I have said. They misrepresent me with what is false, hollow, and untrue.

sn42.12:2 These two extremes should not be cultivated by one gone forth. Indulgence in sensual pleasures, which is low, crude, ordinary, ignoble, and pointless. And indulgence in self-mortification, which is painful, ignoble, and pointless. Avoiding these two extremes, the Realized One understood the middle way of practice, which gives vision and knowledge, and leads to peace, direct knowledge, awakening, and extinguishment. And what is that middle way of practice? It is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion. This, chief, is the middle way of practice that was understood by the Realized One, which gives vision and knowledge, and leads to peace, direct knowledge, awakening, and extinguishment.

sn42.12:3 There are these three pleasure seekers in the world. What three? Take a pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using illegitimate, coercive means, and who doesn’t make themselves happy and pleased, or share it and make merit. Next, a pleasure seeker seeks wealth using illegitimate, coercive means. They make themselves happy and pleased, but don’t share it and make merit. Next, a pleasure seeker seeks wealth using illegitimate, coercive means. They make themselves happy and pleased, and they share it and make merit.

sn42.12:4 Next, a pleasure seeker seeks wealth using means both legitimate and illegitimate, and coercive and non-coercive. They don’t make themselves happy and pleased, or share it and make merit. Next, a pleasure seeker seeks wealth using means both legitimate and illegitimate, and coercive and non-coercive. They don’t make themselves happy and pleased, or share it and make merit. Next, a pleasure seeker seeks wealth using means both legitimate and illegitimate, and coercive and non-coercive. They make themselves happy and pleased, and they share it and make merit.

sn42.12:5 Next, a pleasure seeker seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. They don’t make themselves happy and pleased, or share it and make merit. Next, a pleasure seeker seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. They make themselves happy and pleased, but don’t share it and make merit. Next, a pleasure seeker seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. They make themselves happy and pleased, and they share it and make merit. They enjoy that wealth tied, infatuated, attached, blind to the drawbacks, and not understanding the escape. Next, a pleasure seeker seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. They make themselves happy and pleased, and they share it and make merit. And they enjoy that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape.

sn42.12:6 Now, consider the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using illegitimate, coercive means, and who doesn’t make themselves happy and pleased, or share it and make merit. They may be criticized on three grounds. What three? They seek wealth using illegitimate, coercive means. This is the first ground for criticism. They don’t make themselves happy and pleased. This is the second ground for criticism. They don’t share it and make merit. This is the third ground for criticism. This pleasure seeker may be criticized on these three grounds.

sn42.12:7 Now, consider the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using illegitimate, coercive means, and who makes themselves happy and pleased, but doesn’t share it and make merit. This pleasure seeker may be criticized on two grounds, and praised on one. What are the two grounds for criticism? They seek wealth using illegitimate, coercive means. This is the first ground for criticism. They don’t share it and make merit. This is the second ground for criticism. What is the one ground for praise? They make themselves happy and pleased. This is the one ground for praise. This pleasure seeker may be criticized on these two grounds, and praised on this one.

sn42.12:8 Now, consider the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using illegitimate, coercive means, and who makes themselves happy and pleased, and shares it and makes merit. This pleasure seeker may be criticized on one ground, and praised on two. What is the one ground for criticism? They seek wealth using illegitimate, coercive means. This is the one ground for criticism. What are the two grounds for praise? They make themselves happy and pleased. This is the first ground for praise. They share it and make merit. This is the second ground for praise. This pleasure seeker may be criticized on this one ground, and praised on these two.

sn42.12:9 Now, consider the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using means both legitimate and illegitimate, and coercive and non-coercive, and who doesn’t make themselves happy and pleased, or share it and make merit. They may be praised on one ground, and criticized on three. What is the one ground for praise? They seek wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. This is the one ground for praise. What are the three grounds for criticism? They seek wealth using illegitimate, coercive means. This is the first ground for criticism. They don’t make themselves happy and pleased. This is the second ground for criticism. They don’t share it and make merit. This is the third ground for criticism. This pleasure seeker may be praised on this one ground, and criticized on these three.

sn42.12:10 Now, consider the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using means both legitimate and illegitimate, and coercive and non-coercive, and makes themselves happy and pleased, but doesn’t share it and make merit. They may be praised on two grounds, and criticized on two. What are the two grounds for praise? They seek wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. This is the first ground for praise. They make themselves happy and pleased. This is the second ground for praise. What are the two grounds for criticism? They seek wealth using illegitimate, coercive means. This is the first ground for criticism. They don’t share it and make merit. This is the second ground for criticism. This pleasure seeker may be praised on these two grounds, and criticized on these two.

sn42.12:11 Now, consider the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using means both legitimate and illegitimate, and coercive and non-coercive, and who makes themselves happy and pleased, and shares it and makes merit. They may be praised on three grounds, and criticized on one. What are the three grounds for praise? They seek wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. This is the first ground for praise. They make themselves happy and pleased. This is the second ground for praise. They share it and make merit. This is the third ground for praise. What is the one ground for criticism? They seek wealth using illegitimate, coercive means. This is the one ground for criticism. This pleasure seeker may be praised on these three grounds, and criticized on this one.

sn42.12:12 Now, consider the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means, but who doesn’t make themselves happy and pleased, or share it and make merit. They may be praised on one ground, and criticized on two. What is the one ground for praise? They seek wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. This is the one ground for praise. What are the two grounds for criticism? They don’t make themselves happy and pleased. This is the first ground for criticism. They don’t share it and make merit. This is the second ground for criticism. This pleasure seeker may be praised on this one ground, and criticized on these two.

sn42.12:13 Now, consider the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means, and who makes themselves happy and pleased, but doesn’t share it and make merit. This pleasure seeker may be praised on two grounds, and criticized on one. What are the two grounds for praise? They seek wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. This is the first ground for praise. They make themselves happy and pleased. This is the second ground for praise. What is the one ground for criticism? They don’t share it and make merit. This is the one ground for criticism. This pleasure seeker may be praised on these two grounds, and criticized on this one.

sn42.12:14 Now, consider the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means, and who makes themselves happy and pleased, and shares it and makes merit. But they enjoy that wealth tied, infatuated, attached, blind to the drawbacks, and not understanding the escape. They may be praised on three grounds and criticized on one. What are the three grounds for praise? They seek wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. This is the first ground for praise. They make themselves happy and pleased. This is the second ground for praise. They share it and make merit. This is the third ground for praise. What is the one ground for criticism? They enjoy that wealth tied, infatuated, attached, blind to the drawbacks, and not understanding the escape. This is the one ground for criticism. This pleasure seeker may be praised on these three grounds, and criticized on this one.

sn42.12:15 Now, consider the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means, and who makes themselves happy and pleased, and shares it and makes merit. And they enjoy that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape. This pleasure seeker may be praised on four grounds. What are the four grounds for praise? They seek wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. This is the first ground for praise. They make themselves happy and pleased. This is the second ground for praise. They share it and make merit. This is the third ground for praise. They enjoy that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape. This is the fourth ground for praise. This pleasure seeker may be praised on these four grounds.

sn42.12:16 These three fervent mortifiers who live rough are found in the world. What three? Take a fervent mortifier who has gone forth out of faith from the lay life to homelessness, thinking: ‘Hopefully I will achieve a skillful quality! Hopefully I will realize a superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones!’ They mortify and torment themselves. But they don’t achieve any skillful quality, or realize any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones.

sn42.12:17 Take another fervent mortifier who has gone forth out of faith from the lay life to homelessness, thinking: ‘Hopefully I will achieve a skillful quality! Hopefully I will realize a superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones!’ They mortify and torment themselves. And they achieve a skillful quality, but don’t realize any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones.

sn42.12:18 Take another fervent mortifier who has gone forth out of faith from the lay life to homelessness, thinking: ‘Hopefully I will achieve a skillful quality! Hopefully I will realize a superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones!’ They mortify and torment themselves. And they achieve a skillful quality, and they realize a superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones.

sn42.12:19 In this case, the first fervent mortifier may be criticized on three grounds. What three? They mortify and torment themselves. This is the first ground for criticism. They don’t achieve a skillful quality. This is the second ground for criticism. They don’t realize a superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. This is the third ground for criticism. This fervent mortifier may be criticized on these three grounds.

sn42.12:20 In this case, the second fervent mortifier may be criticized on two grounds, and praised on one. What are the two grounds for criticism? They mortify and torment themselves. This is the first ground for criticism. They don’t realize a superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. This is the second ground for criticism. What is the one ground for praise? They achieve a skillful quality. This is the one ground for praise. This fervent mortifier may be criticized on these two grounds, and praised on one.

sn42.12:21 In this case, the third fervent mortifier may be criticized on one ground, and praised on two. What is the one ground for criticism? They mortify and torment themselves. This is the one ground for criticism. What are the two grounds for praise? They achieve a skillful quality. This is the first ground for praise. They realize a superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. This is the second ground for praise. This fervent mortifier may be criticized on this one ground, and praised on two.