Ch'eng Fan asked Motse: "Sir, you say the sage-kings did not have music. But, anciently, when the feudal lords were tired of attending to government, they found recreation in music of bells and drums. When the ministers and gentlemen were tired of attending to office they found recreation in music of yü and sê. And the farmers ploughed the fields in spring, weeded them in summer, reaped the harvest in autumn, and stored the grains in winter. Then they would enjoy music of jars and vases. Sir, you say the sage-kings did not have music. This would be comparing them to the horse placed under yoke and never released, and the bow drawn and never unstrung. Is this not impossible for the ordinary human being?"

Motse replied: In ancient times, Yao and Shun lived in huts and yet they made codes of propriety and composed music. T'ang sent Chieh to exile on the ocean and installed himself ruler of the empire. Having achieved success and without cause for anxiety, he added to the music of the former kings that of his own composition, called "The Salvation", and also instituted the "Chin Chao". King Wu conquered the Yin dynasty and executed Chow and installed himself ruler of the empire. Having achieved success and having no cause of anxiety, he added to the music of the former kings that of his own composition, called "Hsiang". King Ch'eng of Chou again added to the music of the former kings that of his own composition, named "Tsou Yü". The reign of King Ch'eng was not so good as that of King Wu, that of King Wu was not so good as that of T'ang the Successful, and that of T'ang the Successful was not so good as that of Yao and Shun. So, then, he who has the more elaborate music has the less efficient government. Judging from this, music is not anything to govern the empire with.

Ch'eng Fan objected: "Sir, you have said the sage-kings did not have music. This shows they did. How then can you say the sage-kings did not have music?"

Motse said: The desire of the sage-kings was to cut down excesses. Eating is of course profitable, but it takes so little intelligence to eat when one is hungry that it may be said to be nil. Now the sage-kings had music, but it was so little that it may also be said to be nil.