Kung Meng Tse said to Motse, “The gentleman folds his hands and waits to be asked; if he is asked, he speaks; if he is not asked, he is silent. He is like a bell: if struck, it sounds; if not struck, it does not sound.” Motse said, “These words contain three matters, and you now know only one of them, and do not yet know what you are saying. Suppose a great man practises lewdness and cruelty in the state: if one goes forward and remonstrates, they call it insolence; if one offers remonstrance through those about him, they call it slander. This is what the gentleman is in doubt about. Suppose a great man’s government is about to bring calamity upon the state, like a crossbow about to be released: the gentleman must remonstrate. Where the great man’s interest is thus at stake, even if he is not struck, he must sound. Suppose a great man promotes strange conduct that is unrighteous, and obtains the canon of great skill that can be used in the affairs of armies, and desires to attack a state that is without guilt: when the ruler obtains it he will surely use it, to enlarge his lands, to levy taxes and to gather materials; but in going out he will surely meet disgrace; the attacked have no gain, and the attackers also have no gain; this is a loss to both. In such a case, even if he is not struck, he must sound. Moreover, you said, ‘The gentleman folds his hands and waits to be asked; if he is asked, he speaks; if he is not asked, he is silent; he is like a bell: if struck, it sounds; if not struck, it does not sound.’ Now no one has struck you, and you speak. Is this what you call sounding without being struck? Is this what you call not being a gentleman?”

Kung Meng Tse said to Motse, “If one is truly a good man, who does not know it? Like a fine jade that stays at home and does not go out, it has a surplus of brilliance; like a beautiful woman who stays at home and does not go out, men contend to seek her. But one who goes about displaying himself, no one takes. Now you go about everywhere pressing your teaching upon men; how toilsome it is!” Motse said, “In this disordered age, those who seek beautiful women are many; though the beautiful woman does not go out, many seek her. Now those who seek the good are few; unless one presses it strongly upon men, no one knows it. Moreover, suppose here are two men skilled in the stars: one goes about divining for men, and the other stays at home and does not go out. Which of the two has the greater gain?” Kung Meng Tse said, “The one who goes about divining for men has the greater gain.” Motse said, “When benevolence and righteousness are practised alike, the one who goes about persuading men has also the greater merit and goodness. Why should one not go about persuading men?”

Kung Meng Tse put on the chang-fu cap, tucked a tablet in his sash, and in the dress of a Confucian came to see Motse. He said, “Does the gentleman act after he is dressed, or dress after he has acted?” Motse said, “Conduct does not lie in dress.” Kung Meng Tse said, “How do you know it?” Motse said, “Formerly Duke Huan of Ch’i wore a high cap and a broad belt, a golden sword and a wooden shield, and so governed his state, and his state was ordered. Formerly Duke Wen of Chin wore a coat of coarse cloth and a robe of sheepskin, with a leather belt for his sword, and so governed his state, and his state was ordered. Formerly King Chuang of Ch’u wore a bright cap with tasselled strings, a crimson garment and a broad robe, and so governed his state, and his state was ordered. Formerly Kou Chien, king of Yüeh, cut his hair and tattooed his body, and so governed his state, and his state was ordered. These four lords differed in their dress, but their conduct was one. By this I know that conduct does not lie in dress.” Kung Meng Tse said, “Good. I have heard it said, ‘One who lets a good thing lie over the night is unlucky.’ Allow me to put away the tablet and change my cap, and see you again; may I?” Motse said, “Let us meet as we are. If you must put away the tablet and change your cap and then meet, then conduct does lie in dress after all.”

Kung Meng Tse said, “The gentleman must speak the speech and wear the dress of antiquity, and afterwards he is benevolent.” Motse said, “Formerly, when the king of Shang, Chow, reigned, his minister Fei Chung was a cruel man of the world, while Chi Tse and Wei Tse were sages of the world. They spoke the same speech, yet some were benevolent and some were not. Tan, the Duke of Chou, was a sage of the world; Kuan Shu was a cruel man of the world. They wore the same dress, yet some were benevolent and some were not. So it does not lie in ancient dress and ancient speech. Moreover, you imitate Chou and do not yet imitate Hsia; your antiquity is not antiquity.”

Kung Meng Tse said to Motse, “In the ranking of the sage-kings of old, the highest sage was established as Son of Heaven [GOD’s appointed ruler], and the next were established as ministers and great officers. Now Confucius is broad in the Odes and the Documents, discerning in rites and music, thorough in the knowledge of all things. If Confucius had lived under the sage-kings, would they not have made Confucius Son of Heaven?” Motse said, “The wise man must honour Heaven [GOD] and serve the spirits [angels, for GOD’s sake], love men and use moderation; when these are combined, he is wise. Now you say that Confucius is broad in the Odes and the Documents, discerning in rites and music, thorough in the knowledge of all things, and that therefore he could be Son of Heaven. This is counting another man’s teeth and calling oneself rich.”

Kung Meng Tse said, “Poverty and wealth, long life and early death are firmly fixed with GOD; they cannot be lessened or increased.” And he said, “The gentleman must learn.” Motse said, “To teach men to learn, and yet to hold that there is fate [GOD’s decree], is like bidding a man bind up his hair and take off his cap.”

Kung Meng Tse said to Motse, “There is righteousness and unrighteousness, but there is no blessing and no ill fortune.” Motse said, “The sage-kings of old all held that the spirits were divine and bright, and could bring misfortune and fortune [by GOD’s leave]; they held that there were blessing and ill fortune, and therefore their government was ordered and their state secure. From Chieh and Chow downward, all held that the spirits were not divine and bright, and could not bring misfortune and fortune; they held that there were no blessing and no ill fortune, and therefore their government was disordered and their state endangered. So in the books of the former kings you too have it: ‘Arrogance too—what comes forth from you is ill-omened.’ This says that for doing what is not good there is punishment, and for doing good there is reward.”

Motse said to Kung Meng Tse, “In the mourning rites, for a ruler, parents, wife and heir who have died, mourning dress is worn for three years; for father’s brothers and for brothers, one year; for clansmen, five months; for father’s sisters, sisters, mother’s brothers and sisters’ sons, there are in each case some months of mourning. In the intervals when no mourning is kept, one recites the three hundred Odes, plays the three hundred Odes on the strings, sings the three hundred Odes, and dances the three hundred Odes. If your words were followed, on what day would the gentleman listen to cases and govern, and on what day would the common people go to work?” Kung Meng Tse said, “When the state is disordered, put it in order; when it is in order, practise rites and music. When the state is in order, go to work; when the state is rich, practise rites and music.” Motse said, “The order of the state comes from ordering it; if ordering is abandoned, the order of the state is abandoned. The wealth of the state comes from work; if work is abandoned, the wealth of the state is abandoned. Therefore, even in an ordered state, exhortation must be unwearied before all is well. Now you say, ‘When the state is in order, practise rites and music; when it is disordered, put it in order.’ This is like digging a well when one is choking, or seeking a physician when one is dead. In ancient times the cruel kings of the Three Dynasties, Chieh, Chow, Yu and Li, abandoned themselves to sound and music and gave no thought to their people; therefore they themselves were put to death, and their states became ruins and wastes. All followed this road.”

Kung Meng Tse said, “There are no spirits.” And he said, “The gentleman must learn the rites of sacrifice [to GOD].” Motse said, “To hold that there are no spirits and yet to learn the rites of sacrifice is like learning the rites of a guest when there is no guest; it is like making a fishing net when there are no fish.”

Kung Meng Tse said to Motse, “You consider the three years’ mourning wrong; your three days’ mourning is also wrong.” Motse said, “You use the three years’ mourning to condemn the three days’ mourning. This is like a naked man saying that a man who hitches up his robe is disrespectful.”

Kung Meng Tse said to Motse, “If a man’s knowledge is in some respect better than that of others, can he be called wise?” Motse said, “A fool’s knowledge too has something in which it is better than that of others; can the fool then be called wise?” Kung Meng Tse said, “The three years’ mourning imitates my longing for my parents.” Motse said, “The knowledge of an infant child is only to long for its parents. The parents cannot be had, yet it cries out without ceasing. What is the reason for this? It is the extreme of folly. Then how can the knowledge of the Confucians be better than that of an infant child?”

Motse said, “I asked a Confucian, ‘Why do you make music?’ He said, ‘Music is made for music’s sake.’ Motse said, “You have not answered me. Now suppose I ask, ‘Why do you build a house?’ and you say, ‘In winter to avoid the cold, in summer to avoid the heat, and the house is to separate men and women.’ Then you have told me the reason for building a house. Now I ask, ‘Why do you make music?’ and you say, ‘Music is made for music’s sake.’ This is as if I asked, ‘Why do you build a house?’ and you said, ‘A house is built for a house’s sake.’”

Motse said to Ch’eng Tse, “The Way of the Confucians has four policies that are enough to ruin the world. The Confucians consider GOD not discerning and the spirits not divine; when GOD and the spirits are displeased, this is enough to ruin the world. Again, they bury lavishly and mourn long, make double coffins and outer coffins, and provide many garments and shrouds; they send off the dead as if moving house, and for three years they weep, rising only when supported and walking only with a staff, their ears hearing nothing and their eyes seeing nothing; this is enough to ruin the world. Again, with strings and songs, drums and dances, they practise sound and music; this is enough to ruin the world. Again, they hold that there is fate [GOD’s decree], that poverty and wealth, long life and early death, order and disorder, safety and danger have their fixed limits, and cannot be lessened or increased. If those above practise it, they will surely not attend to government; if those below practise it, they will surely not attend to work. This is enough to ruin the world.” Ch’eng Tse said, “Too much, Master, is your disparagement of the Confucians!” Motse said, “If the Confucians truly did not have these four policies and I said that they did, that would be disparagement. Now the Confucians truly have these four policies, and my saying so is not disparagement; it is telling what I have heard.” Ch’eng Tse had no answer and went out. Motse said, “He is perplexed.” Ch’eng Tse came back, sat down, came forward and said again, “Just now, Master, there was something in your words worth hearing. According to your words, you neither praise Yü nor disparage Chieh and Chow.” Motse said, “Not so. To answer familiar words and give arguments is mere quickness. If the attack is heavy, my answer is heavy; if the attack is light, my answer is light. To answer familiar words and give arguments is like carrying the shafts of a cart to strike a moth.”

Motse debated with Ch’eng Tse, and praised Confucius. Ch’eng Tse said, “If you reject the Confucians, why do you praise Confucius?” Motse said, “This too is right and cannot be changed. Now when birds hear of the trouble of heat and drought, they fly high; when fish hear of the trouble of heat and drought, they go low. In this matter, even if Yü and T’ang made the plan for them, they surely could not change it. Birds and fish may be called ignorant, yet Yü and T’ang still say that they should be followed. Now should I, Ti, not praise Confucius at all?”

One who frequented the school of Motse said to Motse, “Master considers the spirits to be divine and bright, to know, and to be able to bring calamity upon men?”

One who frequented the school of Motse, strong and sound in body, with quick and penetrating thoughts, wished to follow him and learn. Motse said, “Learn for a while, and I will make you an official.” Encouraged by good words, he learned; and when a year had passed he demanded office from Motse. Motse said, “I will not give you office. Have you heard the saying of Lu? There were five brothers whose father died. The eldest son was addicted to wine and would not bury him. His four younger brothers said, ‘You must bury him with us, and we will buy wine for you.’ Encouraged by good words, he buried his father. When the burial was over, he demanded the wine from his four brothers. The four brothers said, ‘We have not promised you wine. You buried your father, and I buried mine; is he only my father? If you did not bury him, men would laugh at you; therefore I urged you to bury him.’ Now you practise righteousness, and I too practise righteousness; is it only my righteousness? If you do not learn, men will laugh at you; therefore I urged you to learn.”

One who frequented the school of Motse was asked by Motse, “Why do you not learn?” He answered, “Among my kinsmen there is no one who learns.” Motse said, “Not so. Now those who love beauty, do they say, ‘Among my kinsmen there is no one who loves it, and therefore I do not love it’? Those who desire wealth and rank, do they say, ‘Among my kinsmen there is no one who desires it, and therefore I do not desire it’? Those who love beauty and desire wealth and rank do not look at others, but force themselves to it. Righteousness is the great vessel of the world; why should you look at others? You must force yourself to it.”

One who frequented the school of Motse said to Motse, “Master considers the spirits to be divine and bright, so that they enrich those who do good and bring calamity on the cruel [by GOD’s leave]. Now I have served you, Master, for a long time, and blessing has not come. Perhaps your words are not good? Or are the spirits not bright? Why is it that I do not obtain blessing?” Motse said, “Even if you do not obtain blessing, why must my words be not good, and why must the spirits be not bright? Have you heard of the penalty for concealing men?” He answered, “I have not heard of it.” Motse said, “Suppose here is a man who has ten sons: could you praise them ten times over, and praise yourself once?” He answered, “I could not.” “Suppose here is a man who has a hundred sons: could you praise their goodness all your life, and have not one of your own?” He answered, “I could not.” Motse said, “To conceal even one man is still a crime. Now what you conceal is so much; you will have a heavy guilt. What blessing do you seek?”

Motse was ill. Tieh Pi came forward and asked, “Master holds that the spirits are bright and able to bring misfortune and fortune, rewarding the good and punishing the bad. Now you, Master, are a sage; why are you ill? Perhaps your words are not good? Or do the spirits not know?” Motse said, “Even if I am ill, why must the spirits be not bright? A man gets illness in many ways: some get it from cold and heat, some from toil and hardship. Among a hundred doors, if one is opened, how should the robbers have no way in?”

Two or three of his followers who had come to Motse wished to learn archery. Motse said, “It cannot be. The wise man must measure what his strength can reach and apply himself accordingly. A scholar of the state, in battle and helping others besides, still cannot keep up. Now you are not a scholar of the state; how can you accomplish learning and also archery?”

Two or three of his followers reported to Motse, “Kao Tse said, ‘He speaks of righteousness but his conduct is very bad; please cast him off.’” Motse said, “It cannot be. To cite my words in order to disparage my conduct is still better than having none. Suppose a man here said, ‘Ti is very unbenevolent, though he honours Heaven and serves the spirits and loves men; he is very unbenevolent’—even so, that is better than having none. Now Kao Tse’s talk is very eloquent; he speaks of benevolence and righteousness, and does not disparage me; Kao Tse is still better than having none.” Two or three of his followers reported to Motse, “Kao Tse is better able to practise benevolence.” Motse said, “Not necessarily. Kao Tse’s practising of benevolence is like a lame man who thinks himself tall, or a crouching man who thinks himself broad; it cannot last long.”

Kao Tse said to Motse, “I can govern a state and carry on its government.” Motse said, “One who governs speaks with his mouth, and must act with his body. Now you speak with your mouth, and your body does not act; this is disorder in your own person. If you cannot govern your own person, how can you govern the government of a state? You had better first guard against the disorder of your own person.”