Long Discourses 2

The Fruits of the Ascetic Life

1. A Discussion With the King’s Ministers

dn2:1 So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Rājagaha in the Mango Grove of Jīvaka Komārabhacca, together with a large Saṅgha of 1,250 mendicants. Now, at that time it was the sabbath—the Komudī full moon on the fifteenth day of the fourth month—and King Ajātasattu of Magadha, son of the princess of Videha, was sitting upstairs in the royal longhouse surrounded by his ministers. Then Ajātasattu of Magadha, son of the princess of Videha, expressed this heartfelt sentiment, “Oh, sirs, this moonlit night is so very delightful, so beautiful, so glorious, so lovely, so striking. Now, what ascetic or brahmin might I pay homage to today, paying homage to whom my mind might find peace?”

dn2:2 When he had spoken, one of the king’s ministers said to him, “Your Majesty, this Pūraṇa Kassapa leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people. He is of long standing, long gone forth; he is advanced in years and has reached the final stage of life. Let Your Majesty pay homage to him. Hopefully in so doing your mind will find peace.” But when he had spoken, the king kept silent.

dn2:3 Another of the king’s ministers said to him, “Your Majesty, this bamboo-staffed ascetic Gosāla leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people. He is of long standing, long gone forth; he is advanced in years and has reached the final stage of life. Let Your Majesty pay homage to him. Hopefully in so doing your mind will find peace.” But when he had spoken, the king kept silent.

dn2:4 Another of the king’s ministers said to him, “Your Majesty, this Ajita of the hair blanket leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people. He is of long standing, long gone forth; he is advanced in years and has reached the final stage of life. Let Your Majesty pay homage to him. Hopefully in so doing your mind will find peace.” But when he had spoken, the king kept silent.

dn2:5 Another of the king’s ministers said to him, “Your Majesty, this Pakudha Kaccāyana leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people. He is of long standing, long gone forth; he is advanced in years and has reached the final stage of life. Let Your Majesty pay homage to him. Hopefully in so doing your mind will find peace.” But when he had spoken, the king kept silent.

dn2:6 Another of the king’s ministers said to him, “Your Majesty, this Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people. He is of long standing, long gone forth; he is advanced in years and has reached the final stage of life. Let Your Majesty pay homage to him. Hopefully in so doing your mind will find peace.” But when he had spoken, the king kept silent.

dn2:7 Another of the king’s ministers said to him, “Your Majesty, this Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people. He is of long standing, long gone forth; he is advanced in years and has reached the final stage of life. Let Your Majesty pay homage to him. Hopefully in so doing your mind will find peace.” But when he had spoken, the king kept silent.

2. A Discussion With Jīvaka Komārabhacca

dn2:8 Now at that time Jīvaka Komārabhacca was sitting silently not far from the king. Then the king said to him, “But my dear Jīvaka, why are you silent?” “Your Majesty, this Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha is staying in my mango grove together with a large Saṅgha of 1,250 mendicants. He has this good reputation: ‘That Blessed One is perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those fit for training, teacher of humankind, awakened, blessed.’ Let Your Majesty visit him. Hopefully in so doing your mind will find peace.” “Well then, my dear Jīvaka, have the elephants readied.”

dn2:9 “Yes, Your Majesty,” replied Jīvaka. He had around five hundred female elephants readied, in addition to the king’s bull elephant for riding. Then he informed the king, “The elephants are ready, Your Majesty. Please go at your convenience.”

dn2:10 Then King Ajātasattu had women mounted on each of the five hundred female elephants, while he mounted his bull elephant. With attendants carrying torches, he set out in full royal pomp from Rājagaha to Jīvaka’s Mango Grove. But as he drew near the mango grove, the king became frightened, scared, his hair standing on end. He said to Jīvaka, “My dear Jīvaka, I hope you’re not deceiving me! I hope you’re not betraying me! I hope you’re not turning me over to my enemies! For how on earth can there be no sound of coughing or clearing throats or any noise in such a large Saṅgha of 1,250 mendicants?” “Do not fear, Great King, do not fear! I am not deceiving you, or betraying you, or turning you over to your enemies. Go forward, Great King, go forward! Those are lamps shining in the pavilion.”

3. The Question About the Fruits of the Ascetic Life

dn2:11 Then King Ajātasattu rode on the elephant as far as the terrain allowed, then descended and approached the pavilion door on foot, where he asked Jīvaka, “But my dear Jīvaka, where is the Buddha?” “That is the Buddha, Great King, that is the Buddha! He’s sitting against the central column facing east, in front of the Saṅgha of mendicants.”

dn2:12 Then the king went up to the Buddha and stood to one side. He looked around the Saṅgha of mendicants, who were so very silent, like a still, clear lake, and expressed this heartfelt sentiment, “May my son, Prince Udāyibhadda, be blessed with such peace as the Saṅgha of mendicants now enjoys!” “Has your mind gone to one you love, Great King?” “I love my son, sir, Prince Udāyibhadda. May he be blessed with such peace as the Saṅgha of mendicants now enjoys!”

dn2:13 Then the king bowed to the Buddha, raised his cupped palms toward the Saṅgha, and sat down to one side. He said to the Buddha, “Sir, I’d like to ask you about a certain point, if you’d take the time to answer.” “Ask what you wish, Great King.”

dn2:14 “Sir, there are many different professional fields. These include elephant marshals, cavalry, charioteers, archers, bannermen, adjutants, food servers, warrior-chiefs, princes, chargers, great warriors, heroes, leather-clad soldiers, and sons of bondservants. They also include bakers, barbers, bathroom attendants, cooks, garland-makers, dyers, embroiderers, basket-makers, potters, accountants, finger-talliers, or those following any similar professions. All these live off the fruits of their profession which are apparent in this very life. With that they make themselves happy and pleased. They make their parents, their children and partners, and their friends and colleagues happy and pleased. And they establish an uplifting religious donation for ascetics and brahmins that’s conducive to the Garden, ripens in happiness, and leads to the Garden. Sir, can you point out a fruit of the ascetic life that’s likewise apparent in this very life?”

dn2:15 “Great king, do you recall having asked this question of other ascetics and brahmins?” “I do, sir.” “If you wouldn’t mind, Great King, tell me how they answered.” “It’s no trouble when someone such as the Blessed One is sitting here.” “Well, speak then, Great King.”

3.1. The Doctrine of Pūraṇa Kassapa

dn2:16 “This one time, sir, I approached Pūraṇa Kassapa and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, I sat down to one side, and asked him the same question.

dn2:17 He said to me: ‘Great king, the one who acts does nothing wrong when they punish, mutilate, torture, aggrieve, oppress, intimidate, or when they encourage others to do the same. They do nothing wrong when they kill, steal, break into houses, plunder wealth, steal from isolated buildings, commit highway robbery, commit adultery, and lie. If you were to reduce all the living creatures of this earth to one heap and mass of flesh with a razor-edged chakram, no evil comes of that, and no outcome of evil. If you were to go along the south bank of the Ganges killing, mutilating, and torturing, and encouraging others to do the same, no evil comes of that, and no outcome of evil. If you were to go along the north bank of the Ganges giving and sacrificing and encouraging others to do the same, no merit comes of that, and no outcome of merit. In giving, self-control, restraint, and truthfulness there is no merit or outcome of merit.’

dn2:18 And so, when I asked Pūraṇa Kassapa about the fruits of the ascetic life apparent in the present life, he answered with the doctrine of inaction. It was like someone who, when asked about a mango, answered with a breadfruit, or when asked about a breadfruit, answered with a mango. I thought: ‘How on earth could one such as I presume to rebuke an ascetic or brahmin living in my realm?’ So I neither approved nor rejected that statement of Pūraṇa Kassapa. I was displeased, but did not express my displeasure. Neither accepting what he said nor contradicting it, I rose from my seat and left.

3.2. The Doctrine of the Bamboo-staffed Ascetic Gosāla

dn2:19 This one time, sir, I approached the bamboo-staffed ascetic Gosāla and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, I sat down to one side, and asked him the same question.

dn2:20 He said: ‘Great king, there is no cause or reason for the corruption of sentient beings. Sentient beings are corrupted without cause or reason. There’s no cause or reason for the purification of sentient beings. Sentient beings are purified without cause or reason. One does not act of one’s own volition, one does not act of another’s volition, one does not act from a person’s volition. There is no power, no energy, no human strength or vigor. All sentient beings, all living creatures, all beings, all souls lack control, power, and energy. Molded by destiny, circumstance, and nature, they experience pleasure and pain in the six classes of existence. And here there is no such thing as this: “By this precept or observance or fervent austerity or spiritual practice I shall force unripened deeds to bear their fruit, or eliminate old deeds by experiencing their results little by little,” for that cannot be. Pleasure and pain are allotted. There’s no increase or decrease, no getting better or worse. It’s like how, when you toss a ball of string, it rolls away unraveling. In the same way, the foolish and the astute will make an end of suffering.’

dn2:21 And so, when I asked the bamboo-staffed ascetic Gosāla about the fruits of the ascetic life apparent in the present life, he answered with the doctrine of purification through fate. It was like someone who, when asked about a mango, answered with a breadfruit, or when asked about a breadfruit, answered with a mango. I thought: ‘How on earth could one such as I presume to rebuke an ascetic or brahmin living in my realm?’ So I neither approved nor rejected that statement of the bamboo-staffed ascetic Gosāla. I was displeased, but did not express my displeasure. Neither accepting what he said nor contradicting it, I rose from my seat and left.

3.3. The Doctrine of Ajita of the Hair Blanket

dn2:22 This one time, sir, I approached Ajita of the hair blanket and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, I sat down to one side, and asked him the same question.

dn2:23 He said: ‘Great king, there is no meaning in giving, sacrifice, or offerings. There’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds. There’s no afterlife. There’s no such thing as mother and father, or beings who arise by God’s command. And there’s no ascetic or brahmin who is rightly comported and rightly practiced, and who describes the afterlife after realizing it with their own insight. This person is made up of the four principal states. When they die, the earth in their body merges and coalesces with the substance of earth. The water in their body merges and coalesces with the substance of water. The fire in their body merges and coalesces with the substance of fire. The air in their body merges and coalesces with the substance of air. The faculties are transferred to space. Four men with a bier carry away the corpse. Their footprints show the way to the cremation ground. The bones become bleached. Offerings dedicated to the heavenly beings end in ashes. Giving is a doctrine of morons. When anyone affirms a positive teaching it’s just hollow, false nonsense. Both the foolish and the astute are annihilated and destroyed when their body breaks up, and don’t exist after death.’

dn2:24 And so, when I asked Ajita of the hair blanket about the fruits of the ascetic life apparent in the present life, he answered with the doctrine of annihilationism. It was like someone who, when asked about a mango, answered with a breadfruit, or when asked about a breadfruit, answered with a mango. I thought: ‘How on earth could one such as I presume to rebuke an ascetic or brahmin living in my realm?’ So I neither approved nor rejected that statement of Ajita of the hair blanket. I was displeased, but did not express my displeasure. Neither accepting what he said nor contradicting it, I rose from my seat and left.

3.4. The Doctrine of Pakudha Kaccāyana

dn2:25 This one time, sir, I approached Pakudha Kaccāyana and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, I sat down to one side, and asked him the same question.

dn2:26 He said: ‘Great king, these seven substances are not made, not derived, not created, without a creator, barren, steady as a mountain peak, standing firm like a pillar. They don’t move or deteriorate or obstruct each other. They’re unable to cause pleasure, pain, or both pleasure and pain to each other. What seven? The substances of earth, water, fire, air; pleasure, pain, and the soul is the seventh. These seven substances are not made, not derived, not created, without a creator, barren, steady as a mountain peak, standing firm like a pillar. They don’t move or deteriorate or obstruct each other. They’re unable to cause pleasure, pain, or both pleasure and pain to each other. And here there is no one who kills or who makes others kill; no one who learns or who educates others; no one who understands or who helps others understand. If you chop off someone’s head with a sharp sword, you don’t take anyone’s life. The sword simply passes through the gap between the seven substances.’

dn2:27 And so, when I asked Pakudha Kaccāyana about the fruits of the ascetic life apparent in the present life, he answered with something else entirely. It was like someone who, when asked about a mango, answered with a breadfruit, or when asked about a breadfruit, answered with a mango. I thought: ‘How on earth could one such as I presume to rebuke an ascetic or brahmin living in my realm?’ So I neither approved nor rejected that statement of Pakudha Kaccāyana. I was displeased, but did not express my displeasure. Neither accepting what he said nor contradicting it, I rose from my seat and left.

3.5. The Doctrine of the Jain Ascetic of the Ñātika Clan

dn2:28 This one time, sir, I approached the Jain Ñātika and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, I sat down to one side, and asked him the same question.

dn2:29 He said: ‘Great king, consider a Jain ascetic who is restrained in the fourfold constraint. And how is a Jain ascetic restrained in the fourfold constraint? It’s when a Jain ascetic is restrained in all that is to be restrained, is bridled in all that is to be restrained, has shaken off evil in all that is to be restrained, and is curbed in all that is to be restrained. That’s how a Jain ascetic is restrained in the fourfold constraint. When a Jain ascetic is restrained in the fourfold constraint, they’re called a knotless one who is self-realized, self-controlled, and steadfast.’

dn2:30 And so, when I asked the Jain Ñātika about the fruits of the ascetic life apparent in the present life, he answered with the fourfold constraint. It was like someone who, when asked about a mango, answered with a breadfruit, or when asked about a breadfruit, answered with a mango. I thought: ‘How on earth could one such as I presume to rebuke an ascetic or brahmin living in my realm?’ So I neither approved nor rejected that statement of the Jain Ñātika. I was displeased, but did not express my displeasure. Neither accepting what he said nor contradicting it, I rose from my seat and left.

3.6. The Doctrine of Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta

dn2:31 This one time, sir, I approached Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, I sat down to one side, and asked him the same question.

dn2:32 He said: ‘Suppose you were to ask me whether there is another world. If I believed that to be the case, I would say so. But I don’t say it’s like this. I don’t say it’s like that. I don’t say it’s otherwise. I don’t say it’s not so. And I don’t deny it’s not so. Suppose you were to ask me whether there is no other world … whether there both is and is not another world … whether there neither is nor is not another world … whether there are beings who arise by God’s command … whether there are no beings who arise by God’s command … whether there both are and are not beings who arise by God’s command … whether there neither are nor are not beings who arise by God’s command … whether there is fruit and result of good and bad deeds … whether there is no fruit and result of good and bad deeds … whether there both is and is not fruit and result of good and bad deeds … whether there neither is nor is not fruit and result of good and bad deeds … whether a realized one still exists after death … whether a realized one no longer exists after death … whether a realized one both still exists and no longer exists after death … whether a realized one neither still exists nor no longer exists after death. If I believed that to be the case, I would say so. But I don’t say it’s like this. I don’t say it’s like that. I don’t say it’s otherwise. I don’t say it’s not so. And I don’t deny it’s not so.’

dn2:33 And so, when I asked Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta about the fruits of the ascetic life apparent in the present life, he answered with flip-flopping. It was like someone who, when asked about a mango, answered with a breadfruit, or when asked about a breadfruit, answered with a mango. I thought: ‘This is the most foolish and stupid of all these ascetics and brahmins! How on earth can he answer with flip-flopping when asked about the fruits of the ascetic life apparent in the present life?’ I thought: ‘How on earth could one such as I presume to rebuke an ascetic or brahmin living in my realm?’ So I neither approved nor rejected that statement of Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta. I was displeased, but did not express my displeasure. Neither accepting what he said nor contradicting it, I rose from my seat and left.

dn2:34 4. The Fruits of the Ascetic Life 4.1. The First Fruit of the Ascetic Life And so I ask the Buddha: Sir, there are many different professional fields. These include elephant marshals, cavalry, charioteers, archers, bannermen, adjutants, food servers, warrior-chiefs, princes, chargers, great warriors, heroes, leather-clad soldiers, and sons of bondservants. They also include bakers, barbers, bathroom attendants, cooks, garland-makers, dyers, embroiderers, basket-makers, potters, accountants, finger-talliers, or those following any similar professions. All these live off the fruits of their profession which are apparent in this very life. With that they make themselves happy and pleased. They make their parents, their children and partners, and their friends and colleagues happy and pleased. And they establish an uplifting religious donation for ascetics and brahmins that’s conducive to the Garden, ripens in happiness, and leads to the Garden. Sir, can you point out a fruit of the ascetic life that’s likewise apparent in this very life?” “I can, Great King. Well then, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like.