Long Discourses 23

With Pāyāsi

dn23:1 So I have heard. At one time Venerable Kassapa the Prince was wandering in the land of the Kosalans together with a large Saṅgha of five hundred mendicants when he arrived at a Kosalan citadel named Setavyā. He stayed in the rosewood grove to the north of Setavyā. Now at that time the chieftain Pāyāsi was living in Setavyā. It was a crown property given by King Pasenadi of Kosala, teeming with living creatures, full of hay, wood, water, and grain, a royal park endowed to a brahmin.

1. On Pāyāsi

dn23:2 Now at that time Pāyāsi had the following harmful misconception: “There is no afterlife. No one is raised after death. There’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.” The brahmins and householders of Setavyā heard, “It seems the ascetic Kassapa the Prince—a disciple of the ascetic Gotama—is staying in the rosewood grove to the north of Setavyā. He has this good reputation: ‘He is astute, competent, intelligent, learned, a brilliant speaker, eloquent, mature, a perfected one.’ It’s good to see such perfected ones.” Then, exiting Setavyā, they formed into companies and headed north to the grove.

dn23:3 Now at that time the chieftain Pāyāsi had retired to the upper floor of his stilt longhouse for his midday nap. He saw the brahmins and householders heading north toward the grove, and addressed his butler, “My butler, why are the brahmins and householders heading north toward the grove?” “The ascetic Kassapa the Prince—a disciple of the ascetic Gotama—is staying in the rosewood grove to the north of Setavyā. He has this good reputation: ‘He is astute, competent, intelligent, learned, a brilliant speaker, eloquent, mature, a perfected one.’ They’re going to see that Kassapa the Prince.” “Well then, go to the brahmins and householders and say to them: ‘Worthy sir, the chieftain Pāyāsi asks you to wait, as he will also go to see the ascetic Kassapa the Prince.’ Before Kassapa the Prince persuades those foolish and incompetent brahmins and householders that there is an afterlife, there is a raising of the dead, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds— for none of these things are true!” “Yes, worthy sir,” replied the butler, and did as he was asked.

dn23:4 Then Pāyāsi escorted by the brahmins and householders, went up to Kassapa the Prince, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. Before sitting down to one side, some of the brahmins and householders of Setavyā bowed, some exchanged greetings and polite conversation, some held up their cupped palms toward Kassapa the Prince, some announced their name and clan, while some kept silent.

2. Nihilism

dn23:5 Seated to one side, the chieftain Pāyāsi said to Venerable Kassapa the Prince, “Worthy Kassapa, this is my doctrine and view: ‘There is no afterlife. No one is raised after death. There’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.’” “Chieftain, may I never see or hear of anyone holding such a doctrine or view! For how on earth can anyone say such a thing?

2.1. The Simile of the Moon and Sun

dn23:5 Well then, chieftain, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, chieftain? Are the moon and sun in this world or the other world? Are they of the heavens or of humankind?” “They are in the other world, worthy Kassapa, and they are of the heavens, not of humankind.” “By this method it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife, there is a raising of the dead, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”

dn23:6 “Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think that there is no afterlife, no one is raised after death, and there’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.” “Is there a method by which you can prove what you say?” “There is, worthy Kassapa.” “How, exactly, chieftain?” “Well, I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who kill living creatures, steal, and commit sexual misconduct. They use speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re covetous, malicious, with wrong view. Some time later they become sick, suffering, gravely ill. When I know that they will not recover from their illness, I go to them and say, ‘Worthy sir, there are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view: “Those who kill living creatures, steal, and commit sexual misconduct; use speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical; and are covetous, malicious, and have wrong view—when their body breaks up, after death, are consigned to a place of loss, a bad place, Hell.” You do all these things. If what those ascetics and brahmins say is true, when your body breaks up, after death, you’ll be consigned to a place of loss, a bad place, Hell. If that happens, worthy sir, come and tell me that there is an afterlife, there is a raising of the dead, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds. I trust you and believe you. Anything you see will be just as if I’ve seen it for myself.’ They agree to this. But they don’t come back to tell me, nor do they send a messenger. This is the method by which I prove that there is no afterlife, no one is raised after death, and there’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”

2.2. The Simile of the Bandit

dn23:7 “Well then, chieftain, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, chieftain? Suppose they were to arrest a bandit, a criminal and present him to you, saying, ‘Sir, this is a bandit, a criminal. Punish him as you will.’ Then you’d say to them, ‘Well then, my men, tie this man’s arms tightly behind his back with a strong rope. Shave his head and march him from street to street and square to square to the beating of a harsh drum. Then take him out the south gate and there, at the place of execution to the south of the city, chop off his head.’ Saying, ‘Good,’ they’d do as they were told, sitting him down at the place of execution. Could that bandit get the executioners to wait, saying, ‘Please, good executioners! I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin in such-and-such village or town. Wait until I’ve visited them, then I’ll come back’? Or would they just chop off his head as he prattled on?” “They’d just chop off his head.” “So even a human bandit couldn’t get his human executioners to stay his execution. What then of your friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who are consigned to a lower realm after doing bad things? Could they get the wardens of Hell to wait, saying, ‘Please, good wardens of hell! Wait until I’ve gone to the chieftain Pāyāsi to tell him that there is an afterlife, there is a raising of the dead, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds’? By this method, too, it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife, there is a raising of the dead, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”

dn23:8 “Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think that there is no afterlife.” “Is there a method by which you can prove what you say?” “There is, worthy Kassapa.” “How, exactly, chieftain?” “Well, I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who refrain from killing living creatures, stealing, and sexual misconduct. They refrain from speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re content, kind-hearted, with right view. Some time later they become sick, suffering, gravely ill. When I know that they will not recover from their illness, I go to them and say, ‘Worthy sir, there are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view: “Those who refrain from killing living creatures, stealing, and sexual misconduct; who refrain from speech that’s false, backbiting, harsh, or nonsensical; and are content, kind-hearted, with right view—when their body breaks up, after death, are admitted to a good place, the Garden.” You do all these things. If what those ascetics and brahmins say is true, when your body breaks up, after death, you’ll be admitted to a good place, the Garden. If that happens, worthy sir, come and tell me that there is an afterlife. I trust you and believe you. Anything you see will be just as if I’ve seen it for myself.’ They agree to this. But they don’t come back to tell me, nor do they send a messenger. This is the method by which I prove that there is no afterlife.”

2.3. The Simile of the Sewer

dn23:9 “Well then, chieftain, I shall give you a simile. For by means of a simile some sensible people understand the meaning of what is said. Suppose there were a man sunk over his head in a sewer. Then you were to order someone to pull him out of the sewer, and they’d agree to do so. Then you’d tell them to carefully scrape the dung off that man’s body with bamboo scrapers, and they’d agree to do so. Then you’d tell them to carefully scrub that man’s body down with pale clay three times, and they’d do so. Then you’d tell them to smear that man’s body with oil, and carefully wash him down with fine paste three times, and they’d do so. Then you’d tell them to dress that man’s hair and beard, and they’d do so. Then you’d tell them to provide that man with costly garlands, makeup, and clothes, and they’d do so. Then you’d tell them to bring that man up to the stilt longhouse and set him up with the five kinds of sensual stimulation, and they’d do so. What do you think, chieftain? Now that man is nicely bathed and anointed, with hair and beard dressed, bedecked with garlands and bracelets, dressed in white, supplied and provided with the five kinds of sensual stimulation upstairs in the royal longhouse. Would he want to plunge back into that sewer again?” “No, worthy Kassapa. Why is that? Because that sewer is filthy, stinking, disgusting, and repulsive, and it’s regarded as such.” “In the same way, chieftain, to the heavenly beings, human beings are filthy, stinking, disgusting, and repulsive, and are regarded as such. The smell of humans reaches the heavenly beings even a hundred leagues away. What then of your friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who are admitted to a higher realm after doing good things? Will they come back to tell you that there is an afterlife? By this method, too, it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife.”

dn23:10 “Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think that there is no afterlife.” “Can you prove it?” “I can.” “How, exactly, chieftain?” “Well, I have friends and colleagues, relatives and kin who refrain from killing living creatures and so on. Some time later they become sick, suffering, gravely ill. When I know that they will not recover from their illness, I go to them and say, ‘Worthy sir, there are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view: “Those who refrain from killing living creatures and so on are admitted to a good place, the Garden, in the company of the heavenly beings of the thirty-three.” You do all these things. If what those ascetics and brahmins say is true, when your body breaks up, after death, you’ll be admitted to the company of the heavenly beings of the thirty-three. If that happens, worthy sir, come and tell me that there is an afterlife. I trust you and believe you. Anything you see will be just as if I’ve seen it for myself.’ They agree to this. But they don’t come back to tell me, nor do they send a messenger. This is how I prove that there is no afterlife.”

2.4. The Simile of the Heavenly Beings of the Thirty-Three

dn23:11 “Well then, chieftain, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. A hundred human years are equivalent to one day and night for the heavenly beings of the thirty-three. Thirty such days make a month, and twelve months make a year. The heavenly beings of the thirty-three have a lifespan of a thousand such years. Now, as to your friends who are admitted to the company of the heavenly beings of the thirty-three after doing good things. If they think, ‘First I’ll amuse myself for two or three days, supplied and provided with the five kinds of heavenly sensual stimulation. Then I’ll go back to Pāyāsi and tell him that there is an afterlife.’ Would they come back to tell you that there is an afterlife?” “No, worthy Kassapa. For I would be long dead by then. But worthy Kassapa, who has told you that the heavenly beings of the thirty-three exist, or that they have such a long lifespan? I don’t believe you.”

2.5. Blind From Birth

dn23:11 “Chieftain, suppose there was a person blind from birth. They couldn’t see sights that are dark or bright, or blue, yellow, red, or magenta. They couldn’t see even and uneven ground, or the stars, or the moon and sun. They’d say, ‘There’s no such thing as dark and bright sights, and no one who sees them. There’s no such thing as blue, yellow, red, magenta, even and uneven ground, stars, moon and sun, and no one who sees these things. I don’t know it or see it, therefore it doesn’t exist.’ Would they be speaking rightly?” “No, worthy Kassapa. There are such things as dark and bright sights, and one who sees them. And those other things are real, too, as is the one who sees them. So it’s not right to say this: ‘I don’t know it or see it, therefore it doesn’t exist.’” “In the same way, chieftain, when you tell me you don’t believe me you seem like the blind man in the simile. You can’t see the other world the way you think, with the eye of the flesh. There are ascetics and brahmins who live in the wilderness, frequenting remote lodgings in the wilderness and the forest. Meditating diligent, keen, and resolute, they purify the heavenly eye, the power of clairvoyance. With clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, they see this world and the other world, and the sentient beings there. That’s how to see the other world, not how you think, with the eye of the flesh. By this method, too, it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife.”

dn23:12 “Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think that there is no afterlife.” “Can you prove it?” “I can.” “How, exactly, chieftain?” “Well, I see ascetics and brahmins who are ethical, of good character, who want to live and don’t want to die, who want to be happy and recoil from pain. I think to myself, ‘If those ascetics and brahmins knew that things were going to be better for them after death, they’d drink poison, take their lives, hang themselves, or throw themselves off a cliff. They mustn’t know that things are going to be better for them after death. That’s why they are ethical, of good character, wanting to live and not wanting to die, wanting to be happy and recoiling from pain.’ This is the method by which I prove that there is no afterlife.”

2.6. The Simile of the Pregnant Woman

dn23:13 “Well then, chieftain, I shall give you a simile. For by means of a simile some sensible people understand the meaning of what is said. Once upon a time, a certain brahmin had two wives. One had a son ten or twelve years of age, while the other was pregnant and about to give birth. Then the brahmin passed away. So the youth said to his mother’s co-wife, ‘Madam, all the money, grain, silver, and gold is mine, and you get nothing. Transfer to me my father’s inheritance.’ But the brahmin lady said, ‘Wait, my dear, until I give birth. If it’s a boy, one portion shall be his. If it’s a girl, she will be your reward.’ But for a second time, and a third time, the youth insisted that the entire inheritance must be his. So the brahmin lady took a knife, went to her bedroom, and sliced open her belly, thinking, ‘Until I give birth—whether it’s a boy or a girl!’ She destroyed her own life and that of the fetus, as well as any wealth. Being foolish and incompetent, she sought an inheritance irrationally and fell to ruin and disaster. In the same way, chieftain, being foolish and incompetent, you’re seeking the other world irrationally and will fall to ruin and disaster, just like that brahmin lady. Good ascetics and brahmins don’t force what is unripe to ripen; rather, they wait for it to ripen. For the life of astute ascetics and brahmins is beneficial. So long as they remain, good ascetics and brahmins brim with merit, and act for the welfare and happiness of the people, out of sympathy for the world, for the benefit, welfare, and happiness of angels and humans. By this method, too, it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife.”

dn23:14 “Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think that there is no afterlife.” “Can you prove it?” “I can.” “How, exactly, chieftain?” “Suppose they were to arrest a bandit, a criminal and present him to me, saying, ‘Sir, this is a bandit, a criminal. Punish him as you will.’ I say to them, ‘Well then, worthy sir, place this man in a pot while he’s still alive. Close up the mouth, bind it up with damp leather, and seal it with a thick coat of damp clay. Then lift it up on a stove and light the fire.’ They agree, and do what I ask. When we know that that man has passed away, we lift down the pot and break it open, uncover the mouth, and slowly peek inside, thinking, ‘Hopefully we’ll see his soul escaping.’ But we don’t see his soul escaping. This is how I prove that there is no afterlife.”

2.7. The Simile of the Dream

dn23:15 “Well then, chieftain, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. Do you recall ever having a midday nap and seeing delightful parks, woods, meadows, and lotus ponds in a dream?” “I do, worthy Kassapa.” “At that time were you guarded by hunchbacks, dwarves, coquettes, and maidens?” “I was.” “But did they see your soul entering or leaving?” “No they did not.” “So if they couldn’t even see your soul entering or leaving while you were still alive, how could you see the soul of a dead man? By this method, too, it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife, there is a raising of the dead, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”

dn23:16 “Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think that there is no afterlife.” “Can you prove it?” “I can.” “How, exactly, chieftain?” “Suppose they were to arrest a bandit, a criminal and present him to me, saying, ‘Sir, this is a bandit, a criminal. Punish him as you will.’ I say to them, ‘Well then, worthy sir, weigh this man with scales while he’s still alive. Then strangle him with a bowstring, and when he’s dead, weigh him again.’ They agree, and do what I ask. So long as they are alive, they’re lighter, softer, more flexible. But when they die they become heavier, stiffer, less flexible. This is how I prove that there is no afterlife.”

2.8. The Simile of the Hot Iron Ball

dn23:17 “Well then, chieftain, I shall give you a simile. For by means of a simile some sensible people understand the meaning of what is said. Suppose a person was to heat an iron ball all day until it was burning, blazing, and glowing, and then they weigh it with scales. After some time, when it had cooled and become quenched, they’d weigh it again. When would that iron ball be lighter, softer, and more workable—when it’s burning or when it’s cool?” “So long as the iron ball is full of heat and air—burning, blazing, and glowing—it’s lighter, softer, and more workable. But when it lacks heat and air—cooled and quenched—it’s heavier, stiffer, and less workable.” “In the same way, so long as this body is full of life and warmth and consciousness it’s lighter, softer, and more flexible. But when it lacks life and warmth and consciousness it’s heavier, stiffer, and less flexible. By this method, too, it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife.”

dn23:18 “Even though the worthy Kassapa says this, still I think that there is no afterlife.” “Can you prove it?” “I can.” “How, exactly, chieftain?” “Suppose they were to arrest a bandit, a criminal and present him to me, saying, ‘Sir, this is a bandit, a criminal. Punish him as you will.’ I say to them, ‘Well then, worthy sir, take this man’s life without damaging his outer skin, inner skin, flesh, sinews, bones, or marrow. Hopefully we’ll see his soul escaping.’ They agree, and do what I ask. When he’s nearly dead, I tell them to lay him on his back in hope of seeing his soul escape. They do so. But we don’t see his soul escaping. I tell them to lay him bent over, to lay him on his side, to lay him on the other side; to stand him upright, to stand him upside down; to strike him with fists, stones, rods, and swords; and to give him a good shaking in hope of seeing his soul escape. They do all these things. But we don’t see his soul escaping. For him the eye itself is present, and so are those sights. Yet he does not experience that sense-field. The ear itself is present, and so are those sounds. Yet he does not experience that sense-field. The nose itself is present, and so are those smells. Yet he does not experience that sense-field. The tongue itself is present, and so are those tastes. Yet he does not experience that sense-field. The body itself is present, and so are those touches. Yet he does not experience that sense-field. This is how I prove that there is no afterlife.”

2.9. The Simile of the Horn Blower

dn23:19 “Well then, chieftain, I shall give you a simile. For by means of a simile some sensible people understand the meaning of what is said. Once upon a time, a certain horn blower took his horn and traveled to a borderland, where he went to a certain village. Standing in the middle of the village, he sounded his horn three times, then placed it on the ground and sat down to one side. Then the people of the borderland thought, ‘Oh my, what is making this sound, so arousing, sensuous, intoxicating, infatuating, and captivating?’ They gathered around the horn blower and said, ‘Oh my, what is making this sound, so arousing, sensuous, intoxicating, infatuating, and captivating?’ ‘The sound is made by this, which is called a horn.’ They laid that horn on its back, saying, ‘Speak, good horn! Speak, good horn!’ But still the horn made no sound. Then they lay the horn bent over, they lay it on its side, they lay it on its other side; they stood it upright, they stood it upside down; they struck it with fists, stones, rods, and swords; and they gave it a good shake, saying, ‘Speak, good horn! Speak, good horn!’ But still the horn made no sound. So the horn blower thought, ‘How foolish are these borderland folk! For how on earth can they seek the sound of a horn so irrationally?’ And as they looked on, he picked up the horn, sounded it three times, and took it away with him. Then the people of the borderland thought, ‘So, it seems, when what is called a horn is accompanied by a person, effort, and wind, it makes a sound. But when these things are absent it makes no sound.’ In the same way, so long as this body is full of life and warmth and consciousness it walks back and forth, stands, sits, and lies down. It sees sights with the eye, hears sounds with the ear, smells odors with the nose, tastes flavors with the tongue, encounters touches with the body, and knows ideas with the mind. But when it lacks life and warmth and consciousness it does none of these things. By this method, too, it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife.”