1:19One MessageMany witnesses · one GOD
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Plain text of Numbered Discourses 4 · 1. At Wares Village (10)

an4.180:8 Take another mendicant who says: ‘In such-and-such monastery there is a single senior mendicant who is very learned, an inheritor of the heritage, who has memorized the teachings, the monastic law, and the outlines. I’ve heard and learned this in the presence of that senior mendicant: this is the teaching, this is the training, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor reject that mendicant’s statement. Instead, having carefully memorized those words and phrases, you should make sure they fit in the discourse and are exhibited in the training. If they do not fit in the discourse and are not exhibited in the training, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is not the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been incorrectly memorized by that senior mendicant.’ And so you should discard it.

an4.180:9 Take another mendicant who says: ‘In such-and-such monastery there is a single senior mendicant who is very learned, an inheritor of the heritage, who has memorized the teachings, the monastic law, and the outlines. I’ve heard and learned this in the presence of that senior mendicant: this is the teaching, this is the training, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’ You should neither approve nor reject that mendicant’s statement. Instead, having carefully memorized those words and phrases, you should make sure they fit in the discourse and are exhibited in the training. If they fit in the discourse and are exhibited in the training, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been correctly memorized by that senior mendicant.’ You should remember it. This is the fourth great reference. These are the four great references.”

19. Brahmins

A Warrior

an4.181:1 “Mendicants, a warrior with four factors is worthy of a king, fit to serve a king, and is reckoned a factor of kingship. What four? He’s skilled in the basics, a long-distance shooter, a marksman, one who shatters large objects. A warrior with these four factors is worthy of a king, fit to serve a king, and is reckoned a factor of kingship. In the same way, a mendicant with four qualities is worthy of offerings made for God’s sake, worthy of hospitality, worthy of a religious donation, worthy of respectful greeting, and is the supreme field of merit for the world. What four? He’s skilled in the basics, a long-distance shooter, a marksman, one who shatters large objects.

an4.181:2 And how is a mendicant skilled in the basics? It’s when a mendicant is ethical, restrained in the monastic code, conducting themselves well and resorting for alms in suitable places. Seeing danger in the slightest fault, they keep the rules they’ve undertaken. That’s how a mendicant is skilled in the basics.

an4.181:3 And how is a mendicant a long-distance shooter? It’s when a mendicant truly sees any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: <em>all</em> form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ They truly see any kind of feeling … perception … choices … consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: <em>all</em> consciousness—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ That’s how a mendicant is a long-distance shooter.

an4.181:4 And how is a mendicant a marksman? It’s when they truly understand: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’. That’s how a mendicant is a marksman.

an4.181:5 And how does a mendicant shatter large objects? It’s when a mendicant shatters the great mass of ignorance. That’s how a mendicant shatters large objects. A mendicant with these four qualities … is the supreme field of merit for the world.”

19. Brahmins

Guarantee

an4.182:1 “There are four things that no one can guarantee— not an ascetic, a brahmin, an angel, Satan, or anyone in the world.

an4.182:2 What four? No one can guarantee that someone liable to old age will not grow old. No one can guarantee that someone liable to sickness will not get sick. No one can guarantee that someone liable to death will not die. No one can guarantee that bad deeds done earlier—corrupting, leading to worldly life, hurtful, resulting in suffering, old age, and death—will not produce their result.

an4.182:3 These are the four things that no one can guarantee— not an ascetic, a brahmin, an angel, Satan, or anyone in the world.”

19. Brahmins

Vassakāra on What is Heard

an4.183:1 At one time the Buddha was staying near Rājagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels’ feeding ground. Then Vassakāra the brahmin, a chief minister of Magadha, went up to the Buddha, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side and said to the Buddha:

an4.183:2 “Worthy Gotama, this is my doctrine and view: There’s nothing wrong with talking about what you’ve seen, saying: ‘So I have seen.’ There’s nothing wrong with talking about what you’ve heard, saying: ‘So I have heard.’ There’s nothing wrong with talking about what you’ve thought, saying: ‘So I have thought.’ There’s nothing wrong with talking about what you’ve known, saying: ‘So I have known.’”

an4.183:3 “Brahmin, I don’t say you should talk about everything you see, hear, think, and know. But I also don’t say you should talk about nothing you see, hear, think, and know.

an4.183:4 When talking about certain things you’ve seen, heard, thought, or known, unskillful qualities grow while skillful qualities decline. I say that you shouldn’t talk about those things. When talking about other things you’ve seen, heard, thought, or known, unskillful qualities decline while skillful qualities grow. I say that you should talk about those things.”

an4.183:8 Then Vassakāra the brahmin, having approved and agreed with what the Buddha said, rose from his seat and left.

19. Brahmins

Fearless

an4.184:1 Then the brahmin Jānussoṇi went up to the Buddha, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side and said to the Buddha:

an4.184:2 “Worthy Gotama, this is my doctrine and view: ‘All those liable to death are frightened and terrified of death.’” “Brahmin, some of those liable to death are frightened and terrified of death. But some of those liable to death are not frightened and terrified of death.

an4.184:3 Who are those frightened of death? It’s someone who isn’t free of greed, desire, fondness, thirst, passion, and craving for sensual pleasures. When they fall seriously ill, they think: ‘The sensual pleasures that I love so much will leave me, and I’ll leave them.’ They sorrow and wail and lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion. This is someone who is frightened of death.

an4.184:4 Furthermore, it’s someone who isn’t free of greed, desire, fondness, thirst, passion, and craving for the body. When they fall seriously ill, they think: ‘This body that I love so much will leave me, and I’ll leave it.’ They sorrow and wail and lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion. This, too, is someone who is frightened of death.

an4.184:5 Furthermore, it’s someone who hasn’t done good and skillful things that keep them safe, but has done bad things, violence and sin. When they fall seriously ill, they think: ‘Well, I haven’t done good and skillful things that keep me safe. And I have done bad things, violence and sin. When I depart, I’ll go to the place where people who’ve done such things go.’ They sorrow and wail and lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion. This, too, is someone who is frightened of death.

an4.184:6 Furthermore, it’s someone who’s doubtful, uncertain, and undecided about the true teaching. When they fall seriously ill, they think: ‘I’m doubtful, uncertain, and undecided about the true teaching.’ They sorrow and wail and lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion. This, too, is someone who is frightened of death. These are the four individuals liable to death who are frightened and terrified of death.

an4.184:7 Who are those not frightened of death? It’s someone who is rid of greed, desire, fondness, thirst, passion, and craving for sensual pleasures. When they fall seriously ill, they don’t think: ‘The sensual pleasures that I love so much will leave me, and I’ll leave them.’ They don’t sorrow and wail and lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion. This is someone who’s not frightened of death.

an4.184:8 Furthermore, it’s someone who is rid of greed, desire, fondness, thirst, passion, and craving for the body. When they fall seriously ill, they don’t think: ‘This body that I love so much will leave me, and I’ll leave it.’ They don’t sorrow and wail and lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion. This, too, is someone who’s not frightened of death.

an4.184:9 Furthermore, it’s someone who hasn’t done bad things, violence and sin, but has done good and skillful deeds that keep them safe. When they fall seriously ill, they think: ‘Well, I haven’t done bad things, violence and sin. And I have done good and skillful deeds that keep me safe. When I depart, I’ll go to the place where people who’ve done such things go.’ They don’t sorrow and wail and lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion. This, too, is someone who’s not frightened of death.

an4.184:10 Furthermore, it’s someone who’s not doubtful, uncertain, or undecided about the true teaching. When they fall seriously ill, they think: ‘I’m not doubtful, uncertain, or undecided about the true teaching.’ They don’t sorrow and wail and lament, beating their breast and falling into confusion. This, too, is someone who’s not frightened of death. These are the four individuals liable to death who are not frightened and terrified of death.”

an4.184:11 “Excellent, worthy Gotama! … From this day forth, may the worthy Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

19. Brahmins

Truths of the Brahmins

an4.185:1 Once the Buddha was staying near Rājagaha, on the Vulture’s Peak Mountain. Now at that time several very well-known wanderers were residing in their monastery on the bank of the Serpentine River. They included Annabhāra, Varadhara, Sakuludāyī, and other very well-known wanderers. Then in the late afternoon, the Buddha came out of retreat and went to the monastery for the wanderers on the bank of the Serpentine River.

an4.185:2 Now at that time this discussion came up while those wanderers of other religions were sitting together, “The truths of the brahmins are like this; the truths of the brahmins are like that.” Then the Buddha went up to those wanderers, sat down on the seat spread out, and said to them,

an4.185:3 “Wanderers, what were you sitting talking about just now? What conversation was left unfinished?” “Well, worthy Gotama, this discussion came up among us while we were sitting together: ‘The truths of the brahmins are like this; the truths of the brahmins are like that.’”

an4.185:4 “Wanderers, I declare these four truths of the brahmins, having realized them with my own insight. What four? Take a brahmin who says: ‘No sentient beings should be killed.’ In speaking like this, a brahmin speaks the truth, not lies. But they don’t think of themselves as an ‘ascetic’ or ‘brahmin’ because of that. Nor do they think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’. Rather, they simply practice out of kindness and sympathy for living creatures, having had insight into the truth of that.

an4.185:5 Take another brahmin who says: ‘All sensual pleasures are impermanent, suffering, and perishable.’ Saying this, a brahmin speaks the truth, not lies. But they don’t think of themselves as an ‘ascetic’ or ‘brahmin’ because of that. Nor do they think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’. Rather, they simply practice for disillusionment, dispassion, and cessation regarding sensual pleasures, having had insight into the truth of that.

an4.185:6 Take another brahmin who says: ‘All states of existence are impermanent, suffering, and perishable.’ … They simply practice for disillusionment, dispassion, and cessation regarding worldly life, having had insight into the truth of that.

an4.185:7 Take another brahmin who says: ‘I don’t belong to anyone anywhere. And nothing belongs to me anywhere.’ In speaking like this, a brahmin speaks the truth, not lies. But they don’t think of themselves as an ‘ascetic’ or ‘brahmin’ because of that. Nor do they think ‘I’m better’ or ‘I’m equal’ or ‘I’m worse’. Rather, they simply practice the path of nothingness, having had insight into the truth of that. These are the four truths of the brahmins that I declare, having realized them with my own insight.”

19. Brahmins

Approach

an4.186:1 Then one of the mendicants went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him: “Sir, what leads the world on? What drags it around? What arises and takes control?”

an4.186:2 “Good, good, mendicant! Your approach and eloquence are excellent, and it’s a good question. For you asked: ‘What leads the world on? What drags it around? What arises and takes control?’” “Yes, sir.” “Mendicant, the mind leads the world on. The mind drags it around. When the mind arises, it takes control.”

an4.186:3 Saying “Good, sir”, that monk approved and agreed with what the Buddha said. Then he asked another question: “Sir, they speak of ‘a learned memorizer of the teaching’. How is a learned memorizer of the teaching defined?”

an4.186:4 “Good, good, mendicant! Your approach and eloquence are excellent, and it’s a good question. … I have taught many teachings: statements, mixed prose & verse, discussions, verses, inspired exclamations, legends, stories of earlier generations, amazing stories, and elaborations. But if anyone understands the meaning and the text of even a four-line verse, and if they practice in line with that teaching, they’re qualified to be called a ‘learned memorizer of the teaching’.”

an4.186:5 Saying “Good, sir”, that monk approved and agreed with what the Buddha said. Then he asked another question: “Sir, they speak of ‘a learned person with penetrating wisdom’. How is a learned person with penetrating wisdom defined?”

an4.186:6 “Good, good, mendicant! Your approach and eloquence are excellent, and it’s a good question. … Take a mendicant who has heard: ‘This is suffering.’ They see what it means with penetrating wisdom. They’ve heard: ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.’ They see what it means with penetrating wisdom. That’s how an individual is learned, with penetrating wisdom.”

an4.186:7 Saying “Good, sir”, that monk approved and agreed with what the Buddha said. Then he asked another question: “Sir, they speak of ‘an astute person with great wisdom’. How is an astute person with great wisdom defined?”

an4.186:8 “Good, good, mendicant! Your approach and eloquence are excellent, and it’s a good question. … An astute person with great wisdom is one who has no intention to hurt themselves, or to hurt others, or to hurt both. When they think, they only think of the benefit for themselves, for others, for both, and for the whole world. That’s how an individual is astute, with great wisdom.”

19. Brahmins

With Vassakāra

an4.187:1 At one time the Buddha was staying near Rājagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels’ feeding ground. Then Vassakāra the brahmin, a chief minister of Magadha, went up to the Buddha, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side and said to the Buddha:

an4.187:2 “Worthy Gotama, could an untrue person know of an untrue person: ‘This worthy one is an untrue person’?” “That’s impossible, brahmin, it can’t happen.” “Could an untrue person know of a true person: ‘This worthy one is a true person’?” “That too is impossible, it can’t happen.” “Worthy Gotama, could a true person know of a true person: ‘This worthy one is a true person’?” “That, brahmin, is possible.” “Could a true person know of an untrue person: ‘This worthy one is an untrue person’?” “That too is possible.”

an4.187:3 “It’s incredible, worthy Gotama, it’s amazing, how well said this was by the worthy Gotama: ‘It’s impossible, it can’t happen, that an untrue person could know … But it is possible that a true person could know …’

an4.187:4 Once, members of the brahmin Todeyya’s assembly were going on complaining about others: ‘This King Eḷeyya is a fool to be so devoted to the ascetic Rāmaputta. He even shows him the utmost deference by bowing down to him, rising up for him, greeting him with cupped palms, and observing proper etiquette for him. And these king’s men are fools too— Yamaka, Moggalla, Ugga, Nāvindakī, Gandhabba, and Aggivessa—for they show the same kind of deference to Rāmaputta.’ Then the brahmin Todeyya reasoned with them like this: ‘What do the good fellows think? When it comes to the various duties and speeches, isn’t King Eḷeyya astute, even better than the experts?’ ‘That’s true, worthy sir.’

an4.187:5 ‘It’s because the ascetic Rāmaputta is even more astute and expert than King Eḷeyya that the king is so devoted to him. That’s why he even shows Rāmaputta the utmost deference by bowing down to him, rising up for him, greeting him with cupped palms, and observing proper etiquette for him.

an4.187:6 ‘What do the good fellows think? When it comes to the various duties and speeches, aren’t the king’s men—Yamaka, Moggalla, Ugga, Nāvindakī, Gandhabba, and Aggivessa—astute, even better than the experts?’ ‘That’s true, worthy sir.’

an4.187:7 ‘It’s because Rāmaputta is even more astute and expert than the king’s men that they have such devotion to him. … It’s because Rāmaputta is even more astute and expert than King Eḷeyya that the king is so devoted to him. That’s why he even shows Rāmaputta the utmost deference by bowing down to him, rising up for him, greeting him with cupped palms, and observing proper etiquette for him.’

an4.187:8 It’s incredible, worthy Gotama, it’s amazing, how well said this was by the worthy Gotama: ‘It’s impossible, it can’t happen, that an untrue person could know … But it is possible that a true person could know …’ Well, now, worthy Gotama, I must go. I have many duties, and much to do.” “Please, brahmin, go at your convenience.”

an4.187:9 Then Vassakāra the brahmin, having approved and agreed with what the Buddha said, rose from his seat and left.

19. Brahmins

With Upaka

an4.188:1 Once the Buddha was staying near Rājagaha, on the Vulture’s Peak Mountain. Then Upaka the son of Maṇḍikā went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:

an4.188:2 “Sir, this is my doctrine and view: ‘Whoever goes on complaining about others without giving any reasons is reprehensible and at fault.’” “Upaka, if someone goes on complaining about others without giving a reason, they’re reprehensible and at fault. But that’s what you do, so you’re reprehensible and at fault!” “Sir, like a fish caught in a big trap just as it rises, so the Buddha caught me in a big trap of words just as I rose up.”

an4.188:3 “Upaka, I’ve declared: ‘This is unskillful.’ And for that there are limitless words, phrasings, and teachings of the Realized One: ‘This is another way of saying that this is unskillful.’ I’ve declared: ‘The unskillful should be given up.’ And for that there are limitless words, phrasings, and teachings of the Realized One: ‘This is another way of saying that the unskillful should be given up.’

an4.188:4 I’ve declared that: ‘This is skillful.’ And for that there are limitless words, phrasings, and teachings of the Realized One: ‘This is another way of saying that this is skillful.’ I’ve declared: ‘The skillful should be developed.’ And for that there are limitless words, phrasings, and teachings of the Realized One: ‘This is another way of saying that the skillful should be developed.’”

an4.188:5 And then Upaka son of Maṇḍikā approved and agreed with what the Buddha said. He got up from his seat, bowed and respectfully circled the Buddha, keeping him on his right. Then he went up to King Ajātasattu of Magadha, son of the princess of Videha. He told the King of all they had discussed. But Ajātasattu became angry and upset, and said to Upaka, “How rude of this salt-maker’s boy! How scurrilous and impudent of him to imagine he could attack the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha! Get out, Upaka, go away! Don’t let me see you again.”

19. Brahmins

Things to be Realized

an4.189:1 “Mendicants, these four things should be realized. What four? There are things to be realized with direct meditative experience. There are things to be realized with recollection. There are things to be realized with vision. There are things to be realized with wisdom. What things are to be realized with direct meditative experience? The eight liberations.

an4.189:2 What things are to be realized with recollection? Earlier generations.

an4.189:3 What things are to be realized with vision? The passing away and fate of sentient beings.

an4.189:4 What things are to be realized with wisdom? The ending of defilements. These are the four things to be realized.”

19. Brahmins

Sabbath

an4.190:1 At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in the stilt longhouse of Migāra’s mother in the Eastern Monastery. Now, at that time it was the sabbath, and the Buddha was sitting surrounded by the Saṅgha of monks. Then the Buddha looked around the Saṅgha of monks, who were so very silent. He addressed them:

an4.190:2 “This assembly has no chaff, monks, it is free of chaff, pure, and consolidated in the core. Such is this Saṅgha of monks, such is this assembly! An assembly such as this is rarely seen in the world. An assembly such as this is worthy of offerings made for God’s sake, worthy of hospitality, worthy of a religious donation, worthy of respectful greeting, and is the supreme field of merit for the world. For an assembly such as this, giving little becomes much, while giving much becomes even more. An assembly such as this is worth traveling many leagues to see, even if you have to carry your own provisions in a knapsack.

an4.190:3 There are mendicants staying in this Saṅgha who have attained to the heavenly. There are mendicants staying in this Saṅgha who have attained to the sublime. There are mendicants staying in this Saṅgha who have attained to the imperturbable. There are mendicants staying in this Saṅgha who have attained to nobility.

an4.190:4 And how has a mendicant attained to the heavenly? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption … As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption … That’s how a mendicant has attained to the heavenly.

an4.190:5 And how has a mendicant attained to the sublime? Firstly, a mendicant meditates spreading a heart full of love to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. Furthermore, a mendicant meditates spreading a heart full of compassion … rejoicing … equanimity to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of equanimity to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will. That’s how a mendicant has attained to the sublime.

an4.190:6 And how has a mendicant attained to the imperturbable? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. Going totally beyond the dimension of infinite space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’, he enters and remains in the dimension of infinite consciousness. Going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, he enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. Going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, he enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. That’s how a mendicant has attained to the imperturbable.

an4.190:7 And how has a mendicant attained to nobility? It’s when they truly understand: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’. That’s how a mendicant has attained to nobility.”

20. The Great Chapter

Followed by Ear

an4.191:1 “Mendicants, you can expect four benefits when the teachings have been followed by ear, consolidated by voice, examined by the mind, and well penetrated theoretically. What four? Memory comes up slowly, but then that being quickly reaches distinction. This is the first benefit you can expect when the teachings have been followed by ear, consolidated by voice, examined by the mind, and well penetrated theoretically.

an4.191:2 but then that being quickly reaches distinction. Suppose a person was skilled in the sound of drums. While traveling along a road they hear the sound of drums. They wouldn’t have any doubts or uncertainties about whether that was the sound of drums or not. They’d just conclude, ‘That’s the sound of drums.’ but then that being quickly reaches distinction. This is the second benefit you can expect when the teachings have been followed by ear, consolidated by voice, examined by the mind, and well penetrated theoretically.

an4.191:3 but then that being quickly reaches distinction. Suppose a person was skilled in the sound of horns. While traveling along a road they hear the sound of horns. They wouldn’t have any doubt about whether that was the sound of horns or not. They’d just conclude, ‘That’s the sound of horns.’ but then that being quickly reaches distinction. This is the third benefit you can expect when the teachings have been followed by ear, consolidated by voice, examined by the mind, and well penetrated theoretically.

an4.191:4 ‘I remember, good fellow, I remember!’ Memory comes up slowly, but then that being quickly reaches distinction. Suppose there were two friends who had played together in the sand. Some time or other they’d meet. And one friend would say to the other: ‘Do you remember this, my dear? Do you remember that, my dear?’ They’d say: ‘I remember, my dear, I remember!’ but then that being quickly reaches distinction. This is the fourth benefit you can expect when the teachings have been followed by ear, consolidated by voice, examined by the mind, and well penetrated theoretically. You can expect these four benefits when the teachings have been followed by ear, consolidated by voice, examined by the mind, and well penetrated theoretically.”

20. The Great Chapter

Facts

an4.192:1 “Mendicants, these four things can be known in four situations. What four? You can get to know a person’s ethics by living with them. But only after a long time, not casually; only when attentive, not when inattentive; and only by the wise, not the witless. You can get to know a person’s purity by dealing with them. … You can get to know a person’s resilience in times of trouble. … You can get to know a person’s wisdom by discussion. But only after a long time, not casually; only when attentive, not when inattentive; and only by the wise, not the witless.

an4.192:2 ‘You can get to know a person’s ethics by living with them. But only after a long time, not casually; only when attentive, not when inattentive; and only by the wise, not the witless.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Take an individual who’s living with someone else. They come to know: ‘For a long time this venerable’s deeds have been broken, tainted, spotty, and marred. Their deeds and behavior are inconsistent. This venerable is unethical, not ethical.’